Re: [SurroundSound] Re: foobar and SACD-Rs

On the old SSGG we had a list of DACs etc that would support DSD. In fact
most DACs are ladder type (Burr-Brown) and designed for PCM,so  within they
convert DSD streams to PCM and have command leads to support this - folks
who have Denon's should be fully aware of this. DSD DACs are usually the
cheaper types and are used in single bit differential mode, primarily of
the Phillips family. I did have a large collection of data sheets. Also one
last point is that all systems use some form of DSP and that is the voodoo
magic - unless you are a board designer you have no control over this
element, so you could have *in theory* any DAC, controlled by a Red book
DSP, although in practice this would be stupid but so is gas pricing
(petrol in the UK; lol)
Finally if you listen to the original non PS3 oppo rips some sound a lot
nicer (let's not start an argument here please Steven) in native Oppo PCM
conversion than those converted in software by Foobar, perhaps explains
what the Oppo can do in the DSP area.
Finally, I believe that most SACDs could be a bit of a con compared to  PCM
as most are in reality about 19/20 bit and 48k data rate, which sounds
similar to the  HDCD spec albeit with the huge benefit of surround.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:02 PM, scolumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I agree there can be subtle differences. In fact, the Oppo outperforms
> using Foobar in converting DSD to PCM in my recent testing. In
> addition to the Oppo, I've had several Denon players and AVRs that
> have been capable of converting DSD to PCM, as well as 2 Denon
> receivers and a Denon universal player that could output DSD direct to
> analog. I find the Oppo to be as good as any equipment I've had in
> that regard. I wouldn't describe my Denon 3808 AVR, that is capable of
> converting DSD direct to analog or converting DSD to 24/192 PCM
> reasonably well by most accounts, as having a huge difference with the
> Oppo when it converts DSD to 24/88.2 PCM. Maybe my definition of
> "night and day" is different.
>
>
> On Feb 22, 11:28 am, ArnoldLayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > From my experience there can be an audible difference between good and
> > bad DSD to PCM conversions. The rank for the gears I've had between
> > pure and converted DSD would be:
> >
> > Pioneer DV-565A < Oppo BD-980H < Onkyo TX-NR3007.
> >
> > I haven't tried outputting DSD as PCM from my Oppo BD-95 yet, A
> > virginity thing, sort of... :D
> >
> > On 22 feb, 06:02, scolumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > The Oppo doing the conversion to PCM sounds excellent through my Denon
> > > 3808 and certainly not a "night and day" difference with my Denon
> > > doing the conversion.  Maybe there is something going on with your
> > > Yamaha receiver that should be investigated if you are getting such
> > > poor SQ with PCM input to your receiver. There should not be
> > > significant differences between the Oppo doing the conversion versus
> > > your receiver.
> >
> > > On Feb 21, 6:45 pm, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > > You would think if a receiver touts that as a feature they would
> think to
> > > > actually include the feature.  Not complaining about the fake DSD.
> > > >  Actually sounds good.  And better than when I have the Oppo do PCM.
>  Go
> > > > figure.  A fake DSD that sounds better than PCM.  Well, I do get the
> > > > benefit of the light coming on for DSD recordings, even if it
> apparently is
> > > > meaningless!
> >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM, ArnoldLayne <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> >
> > > > > The Burr Borwn PCM1680 is unfortunately not handling DSD signals:
> >
> > > > >http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1680.pdf
> >
> > > > > That is, it has to be transcoded to PCM before reaching the DAC of
> > > > > your receiver.
> >
> > > > > On 21 feb, 03:04, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > This is what the Chinese have to say:
> > > > > >   Digital audio decoding circuitry and digital video circuit in
> the same
> > > > > > circuit board. Multi-channel and two channel decoding, bass
> management, *
> > > > > > space* <http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-111> to
> deal with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > digital sound field processing (
> > > > > > *YAMAHA*<http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-122>
> Cinema
> > > > > > DSPs) are solely responsible for the TI and YAMAHA technology
> cooperation
> > > > > > of TMS320070YE the, 32-bit floating-point arithmetic chip,
> decoding and
> > > > > > other digital disposed The signal sent's Burr-Brown PCM1680
> (192kHz/24bit
> > > > > > six-channel Delta-Sigma DAC) a comprehensive and balanced analog
> > > > > converter. The
> > > > > > audio amplifier section, This machine adopts SANYO power
> amplifier
> > > > > modules:
> > > > > > seven channels, including one the STK 433-330 (three-channel
> modules) and
> > > > > > two STK 433-130 (two-channel modules) Total per sound Road, the
> same
> > > > > output
> > > > > > power. EI transformer power supply power supply circuit is used,
> the use
> > > > > of
> > > > > > low-noise news, fast Schottky diodes for rectification, filter
> capacitors
> > > > > > are Nippon CHEMI-CON, custom YAMAHA the two 6800μF/63V
> electrolytic
> > > > > > capacitors. From the perspective of the overall circuit
> > > > > > *design*<http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-42> ,
> > > > > > the machine continues YAMAHA has always been The ToP-of ART
> concept:
> > > > > focus
> > > > > > on the sound purity, selection of high-quality components
> andcircuit
> > > > > > configurations (to shorten the signal and power paths).
> >
> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:42 PM, August Bleed <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > FWIW I went on a LOT of AV sites to try to figure out exactly
> what is
> > > > > > > residing in my 2065.  I found some Russian sites that were the
> only
> > > > > ones
> > > > > > > that seem to have any kind of info like this on AVRs.
>  Needless to say
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > translation wasn't all that good. So the confusion is mostly
> mine.
> > > > >  Some
> > > > > > > have it that there is some kind of DSD chip in there.  I can't
> seem to
> > > > > > > figure out the DAC from my search.  There is a pretty good
> > > > > differentiation
> > > > > > > btw DSD and PCM in terms of SQ if my unit is in fact lying and
> putting
> > > > > out
> > > > > > > PCM while claiming to do DSD.  I find that kinda weird if I've
> been
> > > > > > > listening to PCM all this time why the DSD stuff sounds so good
> > > > > compared to
> > > > > > > PCM flacs from say HDtracks or what have you.  One would think
> my amp
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > do a much less capable job than what they use.  Anyway I dunno
> if this
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > something anyone else knows about but I would love to know
> what's
> > > > > going on.
> > > > > > >  If it isn't a DSD capable rec. it is doing a pretty good job
> of
> > > > > disguising
> > > > > > > itself as one.  Really.  Its night and day from PCM.
> >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:34 PM, August Bleed <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >> No I just sorta assumed the next model down would likely
> contain the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > >> dac with slightly different implementation.  There is some
> > > > > disagreement
> > > > > > >> whether this has the 1680, the 1681 or the 17--series of
> DACs.  The
> > > > > service
> > > > > > >> manual I found doesn't seem to go into detail on those
> particular
> > > > > parts but
> > > > > > >> its a pretty big list.
> >
> > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:23 PM, realafrica <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > >wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >>> It does not seem to list this Yamaha model, or did I miss
> it, on that
> > > > > > >>> very verbose list?
> >
> > > > > > >>> On Feb 20, 8:29 pm, grill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> > The old thread on AVS:
> > > > > > >>>http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230824
> >
> > > > > > >>> > On febr. 20, 19:36, realafrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > August what exactly is your DSD capable amp?
> > > > > > >>> > > There was a list here of all amps receivers that really
> did do
> > > > > DSD
> > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > >>> > > those that did some foolery as you put it.
> > > > > > >>> > > Since Google made changes to it's G Groups we may not
> have it
> > > > > here
> > > > > > >>> any
> > > > > > >>> > > more, but we should have the list backed up over on HRON.
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > On Feb 20, 5:03 pm, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > > I have a collection of about 100 SACDs.  They all play
> > > > > properly.
> > > > > > >>>  MC and
> > > > > > >>> > > > stereo.  In DSD.  While I cannot be certain there
> isn't some
> > > > > kind
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> > > > foolery going on internally in the amp, all
> indications say
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >>> it is
> > > > > > >>> > > > indeed outputting DSD and was in fact designed to do
> that.  It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >>> one of
> > > > > > >>> > > > the reasons I bought it.  The Oppo was on a short list
> when I
> > > > > > >>> discovered MC
> > > > > > >>> > > > music and I had a Pioneer mid range model that
> wouldn't pump my
> > > > > > >>> B&Ws and
> > > > > > >>> > > > wouldn't play SACDs natively.  Again unless there is
> some
> > > > > foolery
> > > > > > >>> going on
> > > > > > >>> > > > all indications seem to point to it being a DSD capable
> > > > > receiver.
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:55 AM, August Bleed <
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> > > > > Everything is OFF.  I honestly get DSD and what I
> need to do.
> > > > > > >>>  The
> > > > > > >>> > > > > software just doesn't do it.  The amp does just
> fine, the
> > > > > Oppo
> > > > > > >>> does just
> > > > > > >>> > > > > fine.  The room correction software has never given
> me
> > > > > > >>> satisfactory results
> > > > > > >>> > > > > so only the most rudimentary stuff is running.  Set
> to Pure
> > > > > > >>> Mode.  No room
> > > > > > >>> > > > > EQ.  No EQ at all.  DSD capable receiver.  Oppo
> sounds better
> > > > > > >>> passing the
> > > > > > >>> > > > > DSD so I let it.  It shows as DSD on the amp.  It
> sounds
> > > > > > >>> noticeably
> > > > > > >>> > > > > different when I tell the Oppo to output PCM.  I
> don't think
> > > > > it
> > > > > > >>> would
> > > > > > >>> > > > > output DSD if something in the chain was incapable of
> > > > > handling
> > > > > > >>> it.  Or am I
> > > > > > >>> > > > > really missing something?
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:09 AM, scolumbo <
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > >>> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> In most DSD capable receivers, if any EQ or room
> correction
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> applied, the receiver will convert to PCM first.
> So, even if
> > > > > > >>> you are
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> outputting DSD from your player or soundcard, you
> must use a
> > > > > > >>> Direct or
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> similar setting in the receiver that bypasses any
> EQ, bass
> > > > > > >>> management,
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> etc.  For my room, SQ is improved using Audyssey so
> I prefer
> > > > > > >>> using DSD
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> converted to PCM and then having room correction
> applied
> > > > > versus
> > > > > > >>> DSD
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> direct to analog from the Oppo to my Denon 3808.
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> On Feb 18, 9:39 pm, August Bleed <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > Dunno about that.  Maybe on the software side.
>  DSD over
> > > > > HDMI
> > > > > > >>> is pretty
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > much the only way you got it until recently other
> than
> > > > > > >>> analog. Then the
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > Mytek.  Oppo does it just fine.  Sounds great and
> you can
> > > > > > >>> absolutely
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> tell
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > btw that and a PCM.  Even on mid fi set up like
> mine.  I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > >>> imagine the
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > licensing of DSD itself is the killing point, not
> the hdmi
> > > > > > >>> transmission.
> >
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:22 PM, realafrica <
> > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > > Some better soundcard drivers often have DSP.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > > But I imagine there is all kind of CRM $h1t
> involved
> > > > >  with
> > > > > > >>> SACD output
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > > over HDMI.
> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > > Hell, even an SACD capable
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
>
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