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Re: [SurroundSound] Re: foobar and SACD-Rs August Bleed Wed Feb 22 15:00:29 2012

It depends.  Some are done in house.  Others are done at Sonoma by the
Ludwig guy--they used to prominently feature that but I notice I no longer
see his name anywhere.  Interesting.  I should probably not have said night
and day but yeah there seem to be differences even though from what you
guys are telling me even if the Oppo is passing DSD its getting borked by
the receiver--as I said my unit does a fabulous job of it so there aren't
complaints per se other than being duped.  It's just odd behavior to
experience given that it is being converted to PCM anyway.  That's really
all I was saying.  Whoever above basically said it all with the DSP voodoo
which is going on in just about every system...oversampling and such behind
the scenes, it's hard to even know if you can get bit perfect playback on a
consumer system.  My experience above shows that just because the light
comes on, or say the receiver reports this or that sample rate in the case
of PCM, doesn't mean that is what you get.

2012/2/22 scolumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I don't have much experience with HDTracks downloads.  However, I
> could believe that there are differences between their PCM tracks
> versus a player or receiver doing the DSD to PCM conversion,
> especially if they are using a software-based conversion. Is there
> some place on their site that describes their process?
>
>
> On Feb 22, 12:19 pm, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yeah but there is a difference and it is audible when the unit is
> > supposedly outputting DSD.  I wouldn't think there would be if the unit
> in
> > fact wasn't doing DSD at all.  But that is what I am hearing.  I honestly
> > thought I'd been listening to DSD the whole time such was the difference.
> >  They were generally (the improvements) around pianos, vocals, and drums.
> >  These are the things that DSD coincidentally does very well.  Those
> > instruments take on a flatter (notice I didn't say flat) dynamic when I
> > convert to PCM. The same album by the Stones using DSD doesn't sound like
> > the same tracks from HDtracks which are PCM versions of DSD files.  So
> this
> > doesn't exactly make sense on one level.  OTOH either the Oppo is doing a
> > marvelous job at DSD, or the Yamaha is doing a remarkable job of not
> > touching the signal.  I unfortunately can't complain too much because it
> > sounds sublime--but I will think twice about the next receiver I buy that
> > claims to do DSD.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:28 AM, ArnoldLayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From my experience there can be an audible difference between good and
> > > bad DSD to PCM conversions. The rank for the gears I've had between
> > > pure and converted DSD would be:
> >
> > > Pioneer DV-565A < Oppo BD-980H < Onkyo TX-NR3007.
> >
> > > I haven't tried outputting DSD as PCM from my Oppo BD-95 yet, A
> > > virginity thing, sort of... :D
> >
> > > On 22 feb, 06:02, scolumbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > The Oppo doing the conversion to PCM sounds excellent through my
> Denon
> > > > 3808 and certainly not a "night and day" difference with my Denon
> > > > doing the conversion.  Maybe there is something going on with your
> > > > Yamaha receiver that should be investigated if you are getting such
> > > > poor SQ with PCM input to your receiver. There should not be
> > > > significant differences between the Oppo doing the conversion versus
> > > > your receiver.
> >
> > > > On Feb 21, 6:45 pm, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > > > You would think if a receiver touts that as a feature they would
> think
> > > to
> > > > > actually include the feature.  Not complaining about the fake DSD.
> > > > >  Actually sounds good.  And better than when I have the Oppo do
> PCM.
> > >  Go
> > > > > figure.  A fake DSD that sounds better than PCM.  Well, I do get
> the
> > > > > benefit of the light coming on for DSD recordings, even if it
> > > apparently is
> > > > > meaningless!
> >
> > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 12:36 PM, ArnoldLayne <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >wrote:
> >
> > > > > > The Burr Borwn PCM1680 is unfortunately not handling DSD signals:
> >
> > > > > >http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1680.pdf
> >
> > > > > > That is, it has to be transcoded to PCM before reaching the DAC
> of
> > > > > > your receiver.
> >
> > > > > > On 21 feb, 03:04, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > > This is what the Chinese have to say:
> > > > > > >   Digital audio decoding circuitry and digital video circuit in
> > > the same
> > > > > > > circuit board. Multi-channel and two channel decoding, bass
> > > management, *
> > > > > > > space* <http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-111> to
> > > deal with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > digital sound field processing (
> > > > > > > *YAMAHA*<http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-122>
> Cinema
> > > > > > > DSPs) are solely responsible for the TI and YAMAHA technology
> > > cooperation
> > > > > > > of TMS320070YE the, 32-bit floating-point arithmetic chip,
> > > decoding and
> > > > > > > other digital disposed The signal sent's Burr-Brown PCM1680
> > > (192kHz/24bit
> > > > > > > six-channel Delta-Sigma DAC) a comprehensive and balanced
> analog
> > > > > > converter. The
> > > > > > > audio amplifier section, This machine adopts SANYO power
> amplifier
> > > > > > modules:
> > > > > > > seven channels, including one the STK 433-330 (three-channel
> > > modules) and
> > > > > > > two STK 433-130 (two-channel modules) Total per sound Road, the
> > > same
> > > > > > output
> > > > > > > power. EI transformer power supply power supply circuit is
> used,
> > > the use
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > low-noise news, fast Schottky diodes for rectification, filter
> > > capacitors
> > > > > > > are Nippon CHEMI-CON, custom YAMAHA the two 6800μF/63V
> electrolytic
> > > > > > > capacitors. From the perspective of the overall circuit
> > > > > > > *design*<http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-42> ,
> > > > > > > the machine continues YAMAHA has always been The ToP-of ART
> > > concept:
> > > > > > focus
> > > > > > > on the sound purity, selection of high-quality components
> > > andcircuit
> > > > > > > configurations (to shorten the signal and power paths).
> >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:42 PM, August Bleed <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > FWIW I went on a LOT of AV sites to try to figure out exactly
> > > what is
> > > > > > > > residing in my 2065.  I found some Russian sites that were
> the
> > > only
> > > > > > ones
> > > > > > > > that seem to have any kind of info like this on AVRs.
>  Needless
> > > to say
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > translation wasn't all that good. So the confusion is mostly
> > > mine.
> > > > > >  Some
> > > > > > > > have it that there is some kind of DSD chip in there.  I
> can't
> > > seem to
> > > > > > > > figure out the DAC from my search.  There is a pretty good
> > > > > > differentiation
> > > > > > > > btw DSD and PCM in terms of SQ if my unit is in fact lying
> and
> > > putting
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > PCM while claiming to do DSD.  I find that kinda weird if
> I've
> > > been
> > > > > > > > listening to PCM all this time why the DSD stuff sounds so
> good
> > > > > > compared to
> > > > > > > > PCM flacs from say HDtracks or what have you.  One would
> think
> > > my amp
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > do a much less capable job than what they use.  Anyway I
> dunno
> > > if this
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > something anyone else knows about but I would love to know
> what's
> > > > > > going on.
> > > > > > > >  If it isn't a DSD capable rec. it is doing a pretty good
> job of
> > > > > > disguising
> > > > > > > > itself as one.  Really.  Its night and day from PCM.
> >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:34 PM, August Bleed <
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > >> No I just sorta assumed the next model down would likely
> > > contain the
> > > > > > same
> > > > > > > >> dac with slightly different implementation.  There is some
> > > > > > disagreement
> > > > > > > >> whether this has the 1680, the 1681 or the 17--series of
> DACs.
> > >  The
> > > > > > service
> > > > > > > >> manual I found doesn't seem to go into detail on those
> > > particular
> > > > > > parts but
> > > > > > > >> its a pretty big list.
> >
> > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:23 PM, realafrica <
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > >wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > >>> It does not seem to list this Yamaha model, or did I miss
> it,
> > > on that
> > > > > > > >>> very verbose list?
> >
> > > > > > > >>> On Feb 20, 8:29 pm, grill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> > The old thread on AVS:
> > > > > > > >>>http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230824
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > On febr. 20, 19:36, realafrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > August what exactly is your DSD capable amp?
> > > > > > > >>> > > There was a list here of all amps receivers that really
> > > did do
> > > > > > DSD
> > > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > > > >>> > > those that did some foolery as you put it.
> > > > > > > >>> > > Since Google made changes to it's G Groups we may not
> have
> > > it
> > > > > > here
> > > > > > > >>> any
> > > > > > > >>> > > more, but we should have the list backed up over on
> HRON.
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > On Feb 20, 5:03 pm, August Bleed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > I have a collection of about 100 SACDs.  They all
> play
> > > > > > properly.
> > > > > > > >>>  MC and
> > > > > > > >>> > > > stereo.  In DSD.  While I cannot be certain there
> isn't
> > > some
> > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > > >>> > > > foolery going on internally in the amp, all
> indications
> > > say
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>> it is
> > > > > > > >>> > > > indeed outputting DSD and was in fact designed to do
> > > that.  It
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > >>> one of
> > > > > > > >>> > > > the reasons I bought it.  The Oppo was on a short
> list
> > > when I
> > > > > > > >>> discovered MC
> > > > > > > >>> > > > music and I had a Pioneer mid range model that
> wouldn't
> > > pump my
> > > > > > > >>> B&Ws and
> > > > > > > >>> > > > wouldn't play SACDs natively.  Again unless there is
> some
> > > > > > foolery
> > > > > > > >>> going on
> > > > > > > >>> > > > all indications seem to point to it being a DSD
> capable
> > > > > > receiver.
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:55 AM, August Bleed <
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Everything is OFF.  I honestly get DSD and what I
> need
> > > to do.
> > > > > > > >>>  The
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > software just doesn't do it.  The amp does just
> fine,
> > > the
> > > > > > Oppo
> > > > > > > >>> does just
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > fine.  The room correction software has never
> given me
> > > > > > > >>> satisfactory results
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > so only the most rudimentary stuff is running.
>  Set to
> > > Pure
> > > > > > > >>> Mode.  No room
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > EQ.  No EQ at all.  DSD capable receiver.  Oppo
> sounds
> > > better
> > > > > > > >>> passing the
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > DSD so I let it.  It shows as DSD on the amp.  It
> > > sounds
> > > > > > > >>> noticeably
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > different when I tell the Oppo to output PCM.  I
> don't
> > > think
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > >>> would
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > output DSD if something in the chain was incapable
> of
> > > > > > handling
> > > > > > > >>> it.  Or am I
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > really missing something?
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:09 AM, scolumbo <
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > >>> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> In most DSD capable receivers, if any EQ or room
> > > correction
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> applied, the receiver will convert to PCM first.
> So,
> > > even if
> > > > > > > >>> you are
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> outputting DSD from your player or soundcard, you
> > > must use a
> > > > > > > >>> Direct or
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> similar setting in the receiver that bypasses any
> EQ,
> > > bass
> > > > > > > >>> management,
> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> etc.  For my room, SQ is improved using Audyssey
> so I
> > > prefer
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
>
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-- 
August
Bleed, Inc.
Selling Art Is Tying Your Ego To a Leash And Walking It Like a Dog

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