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Re: LFS IRC Channel - QUITE Disappointing! ICMP Request Thu Jul 12 12:03:20 2007

Elliott, I you were *almost* 100% right.

I just don't think it's about country culture. My own culture is far 
away from my country culture, quite unusual but true. But for the rest 
of what you told, I make my words your words and you have my thanks! :)

A giant text was needed to make every point mine clear. It means, above 
everything, respect and caring not only for the community but, 
ironically, also for the person who banned me. If I didn't care for LFS 
Community and for the person who banned me I would write a text not even 
10% the size of the one I made.

It was NOT a case that "I'm just so angry that I will put all my anger 
in a mega-sized text". Of course brought me a lot of indignation, but I 
know how to deal with that in more productive ways like getting 
something else to do in my life...it was a pure respect and caring case.

Anyway, the person itself has already apologized and because of that I 
prefer not taking this discussion ahead, if you guys don't mind...

*LFS projects will still have my full support through mailing lists, 
doesn't matter if you think I'm crazy or not...(unless a high-ranked 
staff be against this of course hehehe)

Besides, anyone who has my alias ("icmp.request") seems a little insane 
too just for having this alias idea! :P

Even insane people can help and collaborate with a project. Anyway, 
building a Linux System from the Scratch? I've loved the idea since the 
first day that I've heard it, but it may sound quite insane too. So, I 
found my place here, I'm not alone! ;)

Who is 100% sane, throw the first stone...

*runs past the wall to protect himself*

Regards,

ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping!

Mail/MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

x86 Intel Prescott 32-bit Platform - Linux 2.6.20.1


Elliott Jeyaseelan wrote:
> John,
> 
> Why would you call him crazy????? Maybe he is genuinely offended by
> whomever, especially to a community that he had a lot of respect for, and he
> doesn’t want to come across as arrogant or ungrateful and therefore went
> overboard in making his points clear in the best way he could......I don’t
> think you would call that crazy......besides he may from a country where our
> cultures could be different from yours and mine...who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
>> John Lockman
>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:50 PM
>> To: General chatter list
>> Subject: Re: LFS IRC Channel - QUITE Disappointing!
>>
>>
>> everyone does know this guy's crazy, right? after all, he's 
>> just wrote a giant email instead of just bitching at the ops :)
>>
>> On 7/8/07, ICMP Request <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Apologizes accepted. Although I'm not in the mood to be back to IRC 
>>> right now, I will keep being part of *LFS projects through 
>> the mailing 
>>> lists.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping!
>>>
>>> Mail/MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> x86 Intel Prescott 32-bit platform
>>>
>>>
>>> William Harrington wrote:
>>>> On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:06 PM, ICMP Request wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (This message can be very large but I really ask for you to, if 
>>>>> possible, take some of your time to read it as I think it's worth
>>>>> reading)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear LFS, BLFS, CLFS, ALFS and related projects 
>> community members 
>>>>> and Staff/Developers,
>>>>>
>>>>> For many months, I believe that more than one year, I've 
>> been using 
>>>>> LFS and BLFS. Unfortunately, I was not able to use it directly as
>>>>> sometimes
>>>>> I've got into health problems, net connection problems, 
>> available time
>>>>> and other miscellaneous problems that unfortunately made 
>> me to stay
>>>>> away
>>>>> from the LFS project for some months, but I always 
>> backed, because it
>>>>> was never related to an issue or a problem I could have 
>> with LFS book,
>>>>> community nor any members or developers. Frequenting the
>>>>> irc.linuxfromscratch.org IRC Server and its channels, mainly
>>>>> #lfs-support until this morning as the alias 
>> icmp.request and in the
>>>>> past as the alias net_priest, it was always a very good 
>> place where I
>>>>> could not only ask questions but also help other members asking
>>>>> questions (because although I still have a limited 
>> knowledge about
>>>>> LFS I
>>>>> could try to help people who didn't have any); but of 
>> course it was
>>>>> also
>>>>> a place where I could chat and interact with people, meeting new
>>>>> friends, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many were the occasions that I've spent a such great time with 
>>>>> members, giving help, receiving help, and also having a 
>> lot of fun 
>>>>> which made me
>>>>> and other people laugh very much; a perfect balance of a place
>>>>> where you
>>>>> don't go only to find and give help, but also to meet 
>> new people and
>>>>> have some fun, of course without deviating of the main 
>> purpose that is
>>>>> to support members who needs help. I really don't know if it's so
>>>>> right
>>>>> to use the #lfs-support channel for off-topic conversations, that
>>>>> would
>>>>> be very better to use the #lfs one but historically not even new
>>>>> members
>>>>> but also all the moderators like to talk about off-topic 
>> things on
>>>>> #lfs-support , as the #lfs channel is mainly desert. At first I
>>>>> tried to
>>>>> talk off-topic subjects like "hello, how are you guys?" on #lfs
>>>>> channel
>>>>> but when I that saw everyone, including all the 
>> moderators, were using
>>>>> #lfs-support channel not only for support but also for 
>> general chat I
>>>>> gave up this idea. Not that I think it's wrong using 
>> #lfs-support for
>>>>> general chat too, as the IRC LFS Community seems very 
>> small so the
>>>>> channel activity is few enough for that, but if all the 
>> members and
>>>>> moderators adopt this idea I assumed I could also do that without
>>>>> having
>>>>> to worry about being 100% on-topic on #lfs-support .
>>>>>
>>>>> Before telling what happened, I first would like to say I NEVER 
>>>>> thought that anyone there should have the obligation to 
>> answer or 
>>>>> help me with any issue, being lfs/blfs or not. No one was being 
>>>>> paid for that. For me
>>>>> it's always like an exchange. I found the book, I read 
>> it and I was
>>>>> really surprised about all the work you made and all the efforts
>>>>> you are
>>>>> making to keep, at least LFS and BLFS books (the other projects
>>>>> books I
>>>>> don't know because I did not see them, but I don't think they are
>>>>> different) highly updated, at least for dev versions. I 
>> think that
>>>>> almost every week and in many cases more than once in 
>> the week you
>>>>> update a new svn version of the book, showing that LFS and BLFS
>>>>> developers worked hard since the beginning and they keep 
>> working hard
>>>>> every day. So it was natural my wish to also give my contribution
>>>>> by at
>>>>> least trying to help other members in the past days even 
>> with my still
>>>>> limited knowledge, or at least being part of the LFS channels,
>>>>> thinking
>>>>> "wow these guys are working REALLY hard and they deserve 
>> my support
>>>>> and
>>>>> my recognition for this" . So I was there on the LFS IRC 
>> not with the
>>>>> main objective of ask help, of course it too, but to 
>> either try to
>>>>> support the project in any way by helping new members or at least
>>>>> showing the IRC developers "hey i'm here on your channel, and I'm
>>>>> active, I support you, you can count with me if and when 
>> you need!"
>>>>> Many great staff/moderators I found these days and even 
>> in the past 
>>>>> days some months ago when I used to go there as 
>> net_priest on the 
>>>>> channel, like Joe, TheEpitome, a guy who his nick I 
>> don't remember 
>>>>> but which starts with the capital letter "A", Ratrophy, and many 
>>>>> others. They were
>>>>> really not only helping me but also making my day better 
>> and I hope I
>>>>> was doing the same (at least was my wish from the deep 
>> of my heart in
>>>>> gratitude for every help I received from them). Well, until this
>>>>> morning, 2007-07-06, maybe 2-3AM GMT where the last one, 
>> Ratrophy, has
>>>>> banned me from the #lfs-support channel, an attitude 
>> which left me
>>>>> in a
>>>>> shock state for the next few minutes, something like 
>> "why? what did I
>>>>> do? I don't believe it!". Ratrophy was always a very active and
>>>>> contributing moderator, and because of this, I think he was the
>>>>> moderator that I most had consideration until now. Many 
>> were the times
>>>>> that he helped me or at least tried to help and many was 
>> my thanks for
>>>>> him because of this. But this attitude has really made me
>>>>> disbelieve not
>>>>> only on him but consequently on the whole LFS community.
>>>>>
>>>>> His reason was simple: I was supposedly asking help for 
>> many things 
>>>>> that were not related to LFS/BLFS projects, including a keyboard 
>>>>> daemon which
>>>>> was the reason he banned me. Well, here are my points:
>>>>>
>>>>> - First of all, I didn't even realize that I was asking so much 
>>>>> help for things don't related to LFS/BLFS, it was so 
>> natural that I 
>>>>> really didn't
>>>>> realize.
>>>>> - Second, I was NOT asking for his help about this 
>> keyboard daemon
>>>>> program. I believe you should have the channel logs, you 
>> can see it
>>>>> clearly and of course tell me if I am wrong but I was 
>> just commenting
>>>>> about the program, maybe just to see Ratrophy and other members
>>>>> opinions
>>>>> about it. I NEVER said "I would like you to help me with 
>> that" or "I
>>>>> think you should have this program on LFS/BLFS, why 
>> don't you have
>>>>> it?"
>>>>> or anything like this, I was just commenting about a 
>> program that I
>>>>> thought it was curious and interesting at least to share with the
>>>>> people
>>>>> to see what they think about it. Maybe a little LFS 
>> off-topic? Sure it
>>>>> could be, but as I said, #lfs-support was historically 
>> an off-topic
>>>>> chat
>>>>> and I never thought it would be a problem.
>>>>> - Third, even if I was did asking for help about this 
>> program or even
>>>>> any LFS-related program, I NEVER thought that helping me 
>> was their
>>>>> obligation. Of course I complained a little before one time (and
>>>>> when I
>>>>> said one, it was really just ONE) telling I would like 
>> only to listen
>>>>> something even if like "oh sh*t I don't know" but I 
>> repeat now I never
>>>>> said it was their obligation. They were on the channel for
>>>>> volunteering
>>>>> helping the others, just as I was trying to be after 
>> realizing the
>>>>> hard
>>>>> work you all are doing and after receiving so much help 
>> on the past.
>>>>> - Forth, and this was the most SERIOUS one: No one, 
>> which includes 
>>>>> Ratrophy, has EVER told me to stop off-topic or non-lfs-related 
>>>>> chat if I was doing it that much and not realizing that. I mean, 
>>>>> why didn't he just told me to stop doing that and 
>> explained me the 
>>>>> situation before banning me directly? It didn't even 
>> need to be on 
>>>>> chat he could have PMed me or, as he doesn't like PMs, 
>> just told me 
>>>>> "please join the chat #icmp_ratrophy_discussion I need 
>> to talk to 
>>>>> you privately". No, he just
>>>>> told me to look to the topic, and at the time I didn't 
>> realize what he
>>>>> meant, then I've put an "?" and then he just banned me. 
>> I mean, was it
>>>>> really necessary? Why on the f***en hell didn't he just talked to
>>>>> me and
>>>>> told this issue, which no one EVER did? And you can see the proof
>>>>> on the
>>>>> logs, I was NEVER warned that I was talking so much 
>> off-topic sh*t and
>>>>> was NEVER asked to stop. If I did and disrespected that, 
>> of course he
>>>>> could have a good reason to ban me, as he would have 
>> asked me to stop
>>>>> and I didn't. But not even that happened! I mean, if you 
>> have a gun
>>>>> you
>>>>> will always shoot first and then ask??? This is insane, and even
>>>>> childish and I thought I was participating on a very 
>> mature community.
>>>>> I mean, of course if Ratrophy or anyone have told me that I was 
>>>>> talking so much about off-topic programs (and they thought I was 
>>>>> also asking help for them, when I was just MENTIONING 
>> them, again 
>>>>> CHECK the IRC LOG), I personally would not agree with that but I 
>>>>> would know how to RESPECT and stop doing that, even against my 
>>>>> wish. But no one told me that, I was not able to defend 
>> myself, not 
>>>>> even to say "ok I will stop if I am annoying you with that" and 
>>>>> then I just got a +b on my face from
>>>>> the person I had most respect and consideration in all 
>> the channel!
>>>>> After that I talked to Ratrophy on #lfs channel and he 
>> removed the 
>>>>> ban, and asked me to rejoin, but frankly, after this episode I 
>>>>> don't ave any
>>>>> wish to be part of LFS IRC anymore. I an too much 
>> disappointed for
>>>>> that.
>>>>> If you want, leave your opinions, but for me a ban 
>> without even trying
>>>>> to talk to me first and tell the issue, was really not 
>> necessary, a
>>>>> power abuse, just to show "hey I'm a moderator I can ban you I'm
>>>>> good!".
>>>>> Childish!
>>>>>
>>>>> And the worst part: I've NEVER saw anyone being banned on #lfs- 
>>>>> support . The first thing I thought "what the hell did I do 
>>>>> wrong???" It was something like that (not exactly but something 
>>>>> like this):
>>>>>
>>>>> Ratrophy: Look at your last question, and read the topic.
>>>>> icmp.request: ? *
>>>>> * This '?' meant: sorry I don't know what you are 
>> talking about I'm 
>>>>> not understanding.
>>>>> Ratrophy: Well, I think you didn't get it...
>>>>> Ratrophy bans icmp.request
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, sorry for the words I will use but what the f**k was 
>>>>> that??? I mean, couldn't he have tried to just explain 
>> "I think you 
>>>>> are talking too much non-related LFS stuff, maybe you could 
>>>>> stop...?" Sure I would do! I am NOT a teenager and I 
>> decided to not 
>>>>> be a teenager anymore since
>>>>> 4-5 years ago. And since then, I was never banned by any 
>> community I
>>>>> made part of, all the ones I had any issue with its 
>> philosophy I left
>>>>> myself no one had to ban me, by the simple reason I'm 
>> not a f***en
>>>>> stupid bastard who wants to ruin the others fun. The only thing I
>>>>> could
>>>>> do if Ratrophy would have proceed like this, asking me to stop,
>>>>> would be
>>>>> have taken this subject ahead, about what should be 
>> considered on-
>>>>> topic
>>>>> and off-topic and maybe suggest people to participate 
>> more of the #lfs
>>>>> channel. I would not complain about this attitude, I would have
>>>>> respected and obeyed it. IF not, then a +b would be justified.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not, he decided to directly ban me, and later talk 
>> to me about 
>>>>> the issue, a completely childish, disrespectful, inhuman, POWER 
>>>>> ABUSIVE and really forgive me for what I will tell now 
>> but stupid 
>>>>> action. Ratrophy has given a REALLY BAD image about LFS 
>> Staff. When 
>>>>> he did it, I was so shocked that in the first minutes 
>> after the ban 
>>>>> I couldn't even believe
>>>>> it, I was literally FROZEN ahead of my computer because I NEVER
>>>>> expected
>>>>> this action from an LFS moderator, specially a so 
>> participative one as
>>>>> Ratrophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> All that I can ask now is to the moderators and staff members of 
>>>>> the LFS Community check the logs and take this issue 
>> ahead. If you 
>>>>> don't do this, it can happen again and more people may 
>> leave LFS as 
>>>>> I'm just about to do. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now 
>>>>> was not to receive general help, as for that there are general 
>>>>> linux channels, neither receive lfs specific help as I 
>> am already 
>>>>> experience very few problems on LFS install and most of 
>> them I am 
>>>>> being able to solve on my
>>>>> own, so I would just be using lfs mail list to report very few
>>>>> problems
>>>>> and that's all. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until 
>> now was to show
>>>>> my support to LFS and be part of a community that I was 
>> loving to be
>>>>> part of.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now for some final considerations about the text I've made:
>>>>>
>>>>> - I could have just retired myself totally from LFS project and 
>>>>> gone to Gentoo, without writing anything. And I'm NOT 
>> doing this as 
>>>>> a vengeance
>>>>> act about what Ratrophy has done. I just, even not 
>> knowing the main
>>>>> participants of the LFS book, that you work really hard, 
>> you helped
>>>>> really much and you at least deserved to know if 
>> something wrong is
>>>>> going on. Until know at least I believed you deserved as much
>>>>> support as
>>>>> possible, by knowing what is going on and why a so grateful and
>>>>> respectful member is about to leave. I could have just said "It's
>>>>> not my
>>>>> business anymore, f**k off them all" and not waste 2h of my time
>>>>> writing
>>>>> this text, but I feel I would be so unfair to people who 
>> work hard
>>>>> do much.
>>>>>
>>>>> - This is NOT a text encouraging normal members to 
>> leave. Besides 
>>>>> that episode LFS is an AMAZING project of people who, as 
>> I already 
>>>>> said many and many times in this text, work really hard. 
>> Of course 
>>>>> I'm about to leave but somethings make me have enough faith that 
>>>>> LFS Staff will at least investigate this.
>>>>>
>>>>> - I am NOT asking punishment to Ratrophy even because 
>> who am I, a 
>>>>> strange, a newcomer, against someone who must be already 
>> many years 
>>>>> on LFS. Of course I would not have any chance. But even 
>> if I had I 
>>>>> think he contributes enough for LFS and helps enough 
>> other members 
>>>>> for just receiving a lecture, like "dude look what you just 
>>>>> did...don't do this anymore..." .
>>>>>
>>>>> - I am NOT trying to split the staff and make staff members ones 
>>>>> against others. That would be TERRIBLE for a such 
>> amazing project!
>>>>> - This discussion is mainly NOT about what can be 
>> off-topic or not 
>>>>> in #lfs-support channel like as I told you if I would be told to 
>>>>> stop talking this things I would have stopped. Then 
>> perhaps I would 
>>>>> lead into a discussion about this but without 
>> complaining about no 
>>>>> one; the opposite, with the objective to make LFS IRC more clean 
>>>>> and organized with more specific and clear rules which would 
>>>>> benefit the whole LFS community and would not hurt not 
>> even 1% of 
>>>>> the respect and the consideration that I had with Ratrophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The main objective of this text is simple: I was 
>> banned without 
>>>>> being warned before to stop the behavior that made me 
>> being banned; 
>>>>> was "shoot
>>>>> first and talk later"; I was always respectful and supportive and
>>>>> frankly I felt myself so much humiliated about this, 
>> because as I told
>>>>> you, I'm an adult and always acted like an adult on LFS and not a
>>>>> stupid
>>>>> teenager who just want to make other people's life 
>> miserable. For the
>>>>> opposite, my main objective was always to make the life of the
>>>>> people of
>>>>> the channel better as a form of gratitude for all the help and
>>>>> knowledge
>>>>> I received all this time from LFS.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Normal members are discouraged to discuss about it, as 
>> it could 
>>>>> be split into an endless discussion about people 
>> defending Ratrophy 
>>>>> and people accusing him and my objective is very far 
>> from causing 
>>>>> conflicts between the members of a project that I have so much 
>>>>> admiration and respect for.
>>>>>
>>>>> - This text is mainly directed to the STAFF. If you think there 
>>>>> will be staff members who will not read this because they do not 
>>>>> make part of the chat mailing list, please forward it to 
>> the proper 
>>>>> persons/mailing lists.
>>>>>
>>>>> - I just want it to be investigated, nothing else. 
>> Please CHECK the 
>>>>> logs and review Ratrophy attitude and just tell if it 
>> was fair and 
>>>>> correct. If Staff opinion is that it was, I'm leaving 
>> permanently 
>>>>> LFS community and going to the Gentoo one, not mad or angry with 
>>>>> the staff members (exception for Ratrophy of course) but really, 
>>>>> deeply sad by this occurrence but leaving my thanks for all the 
>>>>> great work you made on the
>>>>> book and all the help I received, that I was beginning 
>> to want to give
>>>>> it back not only by helping newbie members but on the future
>>>>> beginning a
>>>>> dev-tester and a helping contributor for any of the projects, but
>>>>> unfortunately I won't be able to anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really thank and appreciate anyone who read this text 
>> until here,
>>>>> Estevão Becker (icmp.request / net_priest)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping!
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-chat
>>>>> FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/faq/
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>>>> Hello Estevão,
>>>>
>>>>       It was a hasty decision on my part. Looking forward to your 
>>>> help. I am sorry and am fully responsible for my lack of 
>> tact within 
>>>> the last 24 hours.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> William
>>> --
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